Jesus, before he became a Gentile
The following is an excerpt from the book titled Does God Play Favorites?, by Jim Gerrish, a former pastor and in his later years a Christian worker who lived in Israel for 16 years, welcoming and caring for new immigrants. I have followed the writings of this man for many years and his love for our Jewish people never ceases to amaze me.
Jesus was a Jew. He was born of a Jewish mother, and for that reason alone he could qualify for aliya (immigration in Israel) by present standards. He was born in a Jewish town, circumcised according to Jewish law, worshiped in a Jewish synagogue, and read the Jewish Bible as was customary. He undoubtedly spoke the Hebrew language. The scholar Joachim Jeremias has remarked that Jesus remained completely within the limits of Judaism.
Jesus has been pictured in the garb and with the skin coloration of virtually every Gentile people on earth. However, only in recent years has he been pictured to any degree as a Jew. Modern scholarship has, of course, fully supported this presentation of the arts and media. The theologian Charlesworth states, “…if two facts are unassailable today, they are Jesus’ deep Jewishness –he was a Jew- and his paradigmatic effect on Jews and Gentiles.” *
It would shock many Christians today to see Jesus wearing a tallit (Jewish prayer shawl). Yet, we can be assured that he wore one. Had he not done so, he would have broken the very law that he came to uphold. The law concerning the wearing of such garments is found in Numbers 15:37-49. These garments were certainly still worn in Jesus time, because along with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, a tallit was found almost intact. It can be seen on display today at the Shrine of the Book in Jerusalem.
On one occasion a sick woman came and touched what must have been the fringes (tzitzit) of this garment, and in so doing, she was healed (Mk. 6:53-56). Traditionally the four corners of the tallit are called “the four wings.” Perhaps she had in mind that phrase in Malachi 4:2, which speaks of the Messiah as one with “healing in its wings.”
EVIDENCE OF HIS JEWISHNESS FROM SCRIPTURE
There is much evidence of Jesus’ Jewishness in scripture if we take time to search it out and consider it. Jesus was born of Jewish parents and into a devout Jewish home. He was circumcised on the eighth day (Lk 2:21). After Jesus’ birth, his mother performed the required purification rites by presenting him at the Temple in Jerusalem and by making the necessary sacrifice (Lk. 2:22-24).
Jesus’ parents were faithful in journeying to Jerusalem every year for the feast of Passover (Lk. 2:41). When we remember the distance between Galilee and Jerusalem, and when we consider most people traveled on foot, this was in itself a considerable demonstration of their devotion.
Even as a child, Jesus was deeply attracted to the Temple. He was also interested in the theological discussions carried on in its precincts. On one of his many trips to Jerusalem, he talked at length with the teachers (Lk. 2:42-49), both answering their questions and asking questions of them. The teachers were astounded at his wisdom since he was only a child of twelve years. His parents were also astounded when they discovered he was not on their caravan headed home. They made a panicky trip back to Jerusalem and were amazed to find him in the Temple.
We learn also from scripture that Jesus was no stranger to synagogue, for in Luke 4:16 we see him standing to read as was his custom. As an adult, Jesus himself kept the various Jewish holidays and festivals. He ate the Passover meal with his disciples (Matt. 26:17, cf. John 2:23). In John 5:1, Jesus attends some unnamed feast in Jerusalem. We also read in John’s gospel that Jesus went up to Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles (John 7:2, 14). He even made one of his truly beautiful teachings at this event, claiming himself to be the water of life.
It seems that Jesus, being a devout Jew, also kept the lesser festivals. We see him in Jerusalem in winter at the Feast of Dedication (John 10:22). Today we know this winter festival as Hanukkah. Although it was a non-biblical festival, and it was in winter, with its cold, rain and discomfort, Jesus showed up in Jerusalem for the festival.
We can be sure that Jesus honored the Law. He says of it in Matthew 5:17, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” Sometimes we get the idea that Christ brought an end of the Law. We probably get that idea by not reading far enough in Romans 10:4. In that verse Paul says, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes (NKJV).” He was the end of the law for righteousness, but definitely not the end of the Law.
He no doubt honored the Sabbath. Had he not done so he would have broken the Law. Jesus did have a running battle with the Pharisees concerning what could and could not be done on the Sabbath. It seems that Jesus made a special effort to heal people on the Sabbath, and that was strictly forbidden by the Pharisees and other religious leaders.
Jesus seemed to have no argument with most Jewish customs. His argument was with the failure of some Jewish leaders to practice what they themselves taught. Jesus also attacked their prideful abuse concerning these customs. In. Matthew 23:2-3, Jesus instructs his followers to heed what the religious leaders were teaching, but not to do as they were doing.
In Jesus’ early ministry we see him instructing his twelve disciples not to enter into the way of the Gentiles or go even into the cities of the Samaritans, but only to the people of Israel (Matt. 10:5-6). This is a surprising statement when we realize that much of the area around the Sea of Galilee was in Gentile hands. Virtually the whole eastern and southern shores of the lake were a part of the Decapolis, a Gentile-Greek area. Jesus seems to have confined his ministry to the northern and northwestern shores of the lake, primarily to three Jewish cities, Capernaum, Bethsaida and Korazin.
On one occasion Jesus traveled to the area of today’s Lebanon, in the region of Tyre and Sidon. There he encountered a Syro-Phoenician woman who asked him to heal her child. The disciples roughly requested that she be sent away. Jesus replied to her bluntly in Matt. 15:26, “…It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to their dogs.” The woman persisted and finally Jesus granted her petition. Although we read the Bible, we Gentiles still often picture Jesus as being totally Gentile. How mistaken we are.
HIS FAMILIARITY WITH JEWISH LEARNING
It appears that Jesus had a good understanding of rabbinic learning and methodology. David Flusser, Professor Emeritus of Hebrew University, remarks, “Jesus was part and parcel of the world of the Jewish Sages. He was no ignorant peasant, and his acquaintance with the Written and the Oral Law was considerable” In another place Flusser points out that Jesus had a “…profound Jewish education…” **
In the Mishna, a saying of the great Hillel is repeated. Hillel lived before and slightly contemporary with Jesus. His words were, “What is distasteful to yourself, do not do to your neighbor; that is the whole law, the rest is but deduction.”(Talmud, Shabbat, 31a) How similar is this statement with the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:12, “So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.”
In Luke 20:18 Jesus says, “Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed.” Brad Young points out how the rabbis have a similar story about a pot and a stone: “If a stone falls on a pot, woe to the pot! If a pot falls on a stone, woe to the pot! In either case woe to the pot!” Young also comments on the connection with Jesus and the teaching of the Jews in the episode of Jesus’ temptation in the wilderness. The devil transports Jesus to the pinnacle of the Temple and tempts him to cast himself off that God may deliver him (Matt. 4:5). Young comments how in a later Jewish midrash, the Messiah is pictured as standing on the roof of the temple and proclaiming redemption to the humble.*** Apparently the Jews expected this type of demonstration from their Messiah and therefore Jesus was tempted along these lines.
Flusser in another of his books entitled Jesus, mentions how the Lord certainly followed in the tradition of the Hassidim, or the pious ones in the realm of miracle working. His miracles greatly exceeded all who had gone before him. However, he was a miracle worker in the tradition of Honi the Circle-Drawer and Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa and Abba Hilkia. These men either preceded Jesus or were of the same general period in history. The last two of these miracle workers were also from the Galilee.
JESUS AND THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS
Since their discovery by a Bedouin boy in 1947, the Dead Sea Scrolls have fascinated the minds of Bible scholars. As more of these scrolls have been translated, scholars have realized that they provide us with unusual insights on Jesus and his times.
The members of the Essene group who produced and preserved these scrolls were Jews. They were a very zealous sect of Jews for sure, but they believed some things that Jesus believed. The main body of this sect lived and worked at Qumran, in fairly close proximity to the highway between Jericho to Jerusalem. Thousands of other Essenes were scattered in various communities throughout Israel. It seems very likely that Jesus was acquainted with them and with their teaching.
Many of Jesus’ teachings were similar to those of the Essenes. Flusser points out that they shared the same adversaries, Romans, Sadduccees, Pharisees, and Zealots. They emphasized the sinfulness of humanity, the need for God’s grace, the approaching end of the age, and even the establishment of a new covenant. Jesus was much like the Esssenes in that he considered humility, purity and simplicity of heart as supreme religious virtues. He regarded all possessions as a threat to the holy life. He believed that evil could be overcome with good (Matt. 5:39-41), just as the Essenes before him had believed.
Jesus, along with John the Baptist and the Essenes, also practiced baptism. In the Mishnah, living water (water from rivers or seas) was believed to have the highest grade of cleansing for ritual immersion. It is interesting that John the Baptist baptized in the Jordan River. Jesus and his disciples did the same. The Dead Sea sect required repentance before baptism, likewise the early Christians. There seem to be other teachings that Jesus and his disciples had virtually in common with the Essenes. Charlesworth shows how Essenes spoke of themselves as “poor in spirit” and “poor.” Jesus also admonished his disciples to be “poor in spirit” (Matt. 5:3). The Essenes prohibited divorce. Jesus’ teaching did the same (Mark 10:2-9).
A JEWISH MESSIAH
Jesus, or Yeshua as he is called in Hebrew, came to this earth as God’s promised Servant to the Jewish people. As a part of his great mission to Israel, he also came to bring judgment or deliverance to the Gentiles (Isa. 42:1). As Matthew says: “In his name the nations will put their hope” (Mat. 12:21).
Thus, Jesus came first and foremost to the house of Israel (Matt. 10:6). The New Covenant was made with them and not with Gentile people (Jer. 31:31). Gentiles by the grace and mercy of God were to be “grafted” into God’s covenant with Israel.
We Gentiles in our pride and arrogance have done great violence to the scripture and to its proper understandings. We are guilty of greatly distorting the person of Jesus. We have robbed him of his Judaism. In doing so we have made him contemptible to the Jewish people. We have made him a Gentile like ourselves.
This article is a condensed portion of the Jim Gerrish’s book, Does God Play Favorites. Book publication date 2000
* James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (New York: Doubleday, 1988) p. 167.
** David Flusser, Jewish Sources in Early Christianity (New York: Adama Books, 1987) pp. 19, 62, 25
*** Brad H. Young, Jesus The Jewish Theologian (Peabody, MS: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1995) pp. 221, 167 & 31.
For me, everything you’ve quoted is “old news” and I have to struggle mentally to make myself realize that this information would be a revelation to much of the Christian world. Even most (non-Messianic) Jewish people believe that Yeshua was “a good Jewish boy” and they blame Paul for perverting Yeshua’s teachings.
James, this post was primarily for my Christian visitors (hence the title), although it has many truths and reminders in it that everyone can appreciate.
Oops. Sorry.
I am a born again believer in Yeshua brought up after many years in a Baptist church. I am not Jewish. I know we christians have so much to learn. I loved my Baptist upbringing and have nothing against that old traditional style they gave me. They loved ISRAEL and the Jews for Jesus came to visit us. I was brought up to love ISRAEL. How about Messianic Jews are they brought up to love us urkey Gentile believers in our dumb state of lack of knowledge of Jesus? I am so glad to have learned a few more things now at least. Those who truly follow the HOLY SPIRIT get taught eventually. I know a lot of our christian campus colleges are very liberal colleges these days and alot of our pastors come out of them dumb concerning Jewish things. Because of alot of that anti semitic liberal replacement theology. That has been there before Constantine in ancient writings. But some of are getting through all of that wash with the HOLY SPIRIT guiding and directing us to look deeper. A lot of us gentiles trying to sort through it all. It is tough for us too. Trying to sort through it in organizations that try not to talk about it to much. I am currently attending a Messianic congregation on Shabbat and a regular old church on Sunday mornings. Sometimes that Pastor will actually say we need that OLD Testament too….I have learned a lot from a organization called “Bridges for Peace’ in Jerusalem. Traveled to ISRAEL a lot now. IT keeps calling me back.
I am sorry we gentile Christians offend a lot of you Messianic Jews out there with our lack of knowledge in the scriptures. It helps to go to ISRAEL and a lot can not afford that kind of travel. But I see sincere believers in Jesus not knowing HIS name was YESHUA also. It is a fault of who taught them?? Not knowing how or even to search this out. Not having the right materials. But it is getting out slowly more and more. Joel Roseburgs books are good to help this a Jew and a American. I currently struggle myself in how much TORAH I want to observe after being raised in my gentile past….an so HYPER GRACE SENSITIVE to that message. WE sure all need that kind of LOVE these days….but I need to learn and somehow need someone sensitive enough to me to understand that also. From especially you Messianic Jews who do know. So how do we do that? That is the question. How do we unite in that?? Jo Ann
Jo Ann, thank you for your heartfelt comment. Yes, there are a lot of bridges that will need to be mended and hearts soothed. Just approach your faith with child-like simplicity and love for others, as we all should, realizing that we DO NOT know everything about G-d, Messiah, Israel and his plan for the nations, and many things that we think we know/have been taught may just be far from the truth. Therefore no-one should be arrogant or feel of superior to others (e.g. believers should not feel superior to those who do not yet know G-d’s Messiah as we do – especially other Jews), since what do WE know through our own supposed “intelligence” that has not been REVEALED to us from above?
We do (you and I) know the truth to be Yeshua was Jewish. We do have those facts. That generations have held because of anti semitism a stigma against the Jewish people. We do know that Scripture is G-ds word and Yeshua was G-d in the flesh. That it is easier for a Jew to know his Messiah Yeshua than a Gentile. That they ( the Jew) are the true branch the Gentiles the wild Branch Romans 11. You and I know this. I am not talking about feeling arrogant only how do we (you and I) feel in unity? So I can be in unity with my Pastor Rabbi that I want to learn from. With our disagreements on how much of Torah we do. I see in the Messianic’s a righteousness but some pride….Because they do follow Torah and the Gentiles do not. My goodness didn’t the Apostles themselves argue this to the bone. For instance:
I go to a Messianic congregation now. On Sunday’s, I go to a regular evangelical church that has good teaching also. I get ministered in both. But with my Jewish Rabbi Pastor I disagree on some points. Is it because of how I was brought up in the church and how he was brought up or is it really TRUE. That
we Gentiles must follow those Torah laws also. I would go to my Pastor on Sundays and I am sure he would say not. Because of Paul’s words in Galatians and also in Hebrews. I do know that Naomi’s Ruth the grandmother of David chose to become one with her mother-in-law that way. Than married Boaz and was obedient to her and him. As others have converted that way into the whole law also. So Paul does confuse me. As we learn as Gentiles more of our Jewish roots and our grafted in ness. How much are we responsible for? I feel much more comfortable in the Evangelical church but I miss the music and ISRAEL awareness and so I get fixed that way in a Messianic congregation. But I fight with the LAW…as I am sure you know alot do even Jews who have converted do.
I do know for sure gossip is very wrong as Mariam was a example in Numbers 11. I do know that other things are wrong. It does seem that the evangelical church has that focus on telling others about Jesus (Yeshua) and the Messianic’s more a focus of the whole law of Torah. Not so much spreading the teachings of the apostles as much. I want to be sensitive to my Pastor Rabbi who is Jewish by the way who is very Jewish. I am sure I could talk to him about these things but I have not as yet. I am a little apprehensive too. Because I know he is dogmatic on his issue of Torah and obedience to all of those Laws. So what am I not seeing here in that. As he has seen YESHUA also!! He is the natural branch and understands more I think than I do as a Gentile. So it is not a issue of arrogance here that I am talking about. It is just questions….
Do the Messianic Jews want us to know? Or is there still a lot of OFFENSE against us as gentiles that they are working through in some or most. So many things out there have been against them. The battle hot for sure against the truth….but for you and I lets discuss questions instead of arrogance. If you will…
Thank you
“It does seem that the evangelical church has that focus on telling others about Jesus (Yeshua) and the Messianic’s more a focus of the whole law of Torah. ”
For Jews, living out their Mosaic covenant through observance of our laws and traditions is or should be a natural part of life. At least that’s how the very first followers of Yeshua lived – zealous for Torah AND following and serving their Messiah. Not one or the other. We should live as examples of love for our fellow man, faithfulness to G-d’s commandments, and close identification with Israel.
In my experience, however, when in comes to “messianics” many more Gentiles in the “movement” tend to get obsessed with Torah observance, much more so than Jews, to the point of forsaking other things that they need to be doing, separating themselves into small groups, and even looking down on other Gentiles (in churches) as if they were lawless pagans, and looking down on Jews as corrupters of what they think is “Biblical Judaism.”
Yes you do see this at times I think. But they delude themselves and there are those out there that do I guess. I think they eventually shut down though. I have visited several Messianic Churches in Jerusalem and Tiberias that are LOVELY places of worship and centered on Yeshua….The worship vibrant and inspiring to be there. I have attended Christ’s Church off of Ben Yehuda Street years ago that the message was so wonderful and centered on the LORD. There is also the 24/7 now in Jerusalem that is Messianic and many young Jewish college students attend there. It is absolutely the best!! It seems all centered on Yeshua and not the Torah as much to me there in ISRAEL. So maybe you do find that more here. I attended a Synagog in Roswell Georgia that up front preached the Gospel. Rabbi Solomon was his name and he was a baritone of delight. This is where I was first introduced to the Messianic Synagog. I never knew there was such a thing. In ISRAEL they do seem to call them Churches and not Synagogs. I was so shocked to see Jewish people lining the isles there. Going forward to Accept YESHUA…but they were and many many were. They have a huge auditorium with many Jewish people filling it now. So here were we are I have seen these pockets. I do not attend those kinds of things. IT seems like those that do put JESUS FIRST GROW in that GRACE of HIM get large and yes they have that undercurrent of teaching the TORAH. But are not judgmental in it towards those Gentiles who want to learn and are not TORAH observant. I do not see that but I have not been part of one long enough either.
I feel there is that Spirit there that can be a hurtful one to Gentiles who want to learn their Jewish roots. They call it (Jewish wanna bees) I don’t think that is true; I think some are just grabbing on to the hem of a Jews Garment like the sick woman did Jesus (YESHUA) and as was prophesied in the bible that the Gentiles would flow to JERUSALEM. Some do completely convert to the ORTHODOX way of Judaism as Ruth did in Namomi’s past. But I hardly see that often. I think those that do that succumb to all those rules are just as crazy as those Gentiles that don’t see the HEM of Jesus Rabbinical robe. I think the balance needs to be there. We humans get out of balance. My problem is seeing and waiting on HIM to tell me how much HE wants me to do and for sure where….looking at myself instead of others and not complaining about those over me or around me. But trying to figure out the distortions the church has perverted for me too.
What’s interesting about this posting is it’s conclusion, that Jesus is “A Jewish Messiah”.
It’s all good and well that Jesus, if he ever existed, was a Jew. The various Jewish practices we can surmise Jesus may have engaged in prior to the onset of his grandiose delusions recounted in the “new testament” are well documented in the Jewish Bible: fringed garments, sabbath observance, and pilgrimages to the Temple in Jerusalem–all of these are Jewish, and that is so because we can point to chapter and verse in the Jewish Bible. So, if Jesus really lived, he might have been a Jew.
But so were lots of other people, and that hardly distinguishes any of them as the messiah! There is a huge leap this article took, an unsubstantiated one, from “Jesus was Jewish” to “Jesus was the Jewish messiah”. You will note that the concluding section under the title “A Jewish Messiah” included, suddenly, no references to the Jewish Bible. That is because it is un-Jewish to believe Jesus was the messiah. Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Bible’s messianic prophecy–oh, yes, there is plenty of messianic prophecy in the Jewish Bible. But this article didn’t cite it because it bears no relation to Jesus. Jesus was, for example, the product of a Jewish mother alright, but not of a Davidic father (the Jewish Bible includes promises from G-d that the messiah will be patrilineally Davidic, and thus not a “begotten son of G-d”).
According to Christian beliefs, Jesus was a messiah and even a god. But his messiahship is exclusively Christian, and it does not conform to the Jewish understanding of messiahship, which is detailed in the Jewish Bible. The fact that the world has not witnessed an end of all war, that nations have not beaten their swords into plowshares, is proof positive to the Jews that Jesus died without fulfilling their messianic prophecy. Jesus the irreligious and perhaps even insane Jew, if he ever lived, was the Christian messiah/god, which is to say, from a Jewish perspective, he was definitely not the messiah.
Boy are you mis informed and totally ignorant!!
“Jesus the irreligious and perhaps even insane Jew, if he ever lived, was the Christian messiah/god, which is to say, from a Jewish perspective, he was definitely not the messiah.”
Dear Anonymous…. thanks for sharing your opinion. Since you already have your mind made up on the matter and will not be persuaded otherwise, and since BOTH of us can’t be right about this, I suppose the only thing remains is to wait and see. Since none of us live for very long, it will only be a matter of time until we both find out the truth. I am, however, very much persuaded that the longest and by far the most painful exile in our history, the destruction of our Temple, etc. al of these horrible things that befell us are directly connected to our spurning of our own Messiah almost two millennia ago. We should also keep in mind that G-d oftentimes does things that we humans simply do not anticipate – his thoughts are not our thoughts, and his ways are not our ways.
Some one out there who can’t even say their name is trying to get a reaction.
What business do they have with it anyway if they do not see what history has shown to be true…these people have no mind at all…So ANONYMOUS, like Gene said; One of these days you will know the truth!! No one has to prove anything here to you….
Gene,
Thanks for following up with me. I think you’re right about our holding diametrically opposing views on at least some topics, but I can’t agree that the only way for us to resolve those differences is to await our deaths. Heaven forbid. We’re meant to get to the bottom of these matters prior to that point. And to that end, the G-d of Israel left us some evidence to hash through, and with your permission I’d like to hash through it with you in a respectful, non-combative, non-judgmental fashion, if you’d be open to it.
And I’d like to begin on a point of agreement. You wrote that G-d’s thoughts are not our thoughts. That is a profound truth, and you’ll find that I have a great appreciation for any statement that can be proved by an explicit verse in the Jewish Bible–yours came from Is. 55:8.
But one area of our disagreement is over your theory that “horrible things that befell us are directly connected to our spurning of” Jesus. It is a point of fact that G-d in the Jewish Bible predicted that Jewry would encounter severe punishments which elements within Creation would exact against us, but that ultimately He would be the architect of those torturous travails. But, even predating our current painful exile, Jewish history contains a record of prophetic warnings to the Jews, followed by increasingly severe punishments, up to and including exiles of increasing severity. Clearly Jewish suffering through the millennia has been divine fulfillment of prophetic warnings, and an administration of perfect justice on a level we cannot fathom as human beings. All this you and I agree on. Where we disagree is only on the question of what sin the Jews are being punished for.
When Moses led the Jews to the border of the land Joshua would lead them conquer and resettle, he reminded them to “Keep all these commands that I give you today” and to ” Obey the L-rd your G-d and follow His commands and decrees that I give you today” and “Cursed is the man who does not uphold the words of this law by carrying them out” (Deut. 27). And in Leviticus 26:14-39, to lengthy to quote here but chilling in its fidelity to actual Jewish history up to and including the Holocaust, is G-d’s clear warning to the Jews of what adverse consequences will befall them should they choose not to obey His commandments.
It is important to note that nowhere in the Jewish Bible is there any threat of punishment against the Jews in case they should choose not to recognize the messiah; that’s simply not mentioned as even a possibility, much less a punishable offense, by the Author. But a recurrent theme treated extensively by Moses and the prophets of the Jewish Bible is a concern with a gradual deterioration in Jewish religious observance. That trend has been borne out in Jewish history, with each generation further removed from the revelation at Sinai increasingly lax with commandment observance. It is uncontested that today a majority of world Jewry either is disassociated with the Jewish community and religion, or else is affiliated with one of the breakaway “streams” that define themselves by the degree to which they’ve openly thrown off the yoke of Torah and formally rebelled. You will recall that the epicenter of this demographic/ethical cataclysm was Germany, in the decades leading up to the introduction to humanity of a phenomenon for which we collectively needed to coin a new word: genocide. So, there is an answer to the “why” question you pose about our exile on the pages of the Jewish Bible. It has nothing to do with the Jews’ failure to worship Jesus (whom Christians say came to relieve us of the burden of the Law) and everything to do with Jews’ collective communal failure to perform the commandments. Let’s hope that in this new year, all of that will change.
“It is important to note that nowhere in the Jewish Bible is there any threat of punishment against the Jews in case they should choose not to recognize the messiah; that’s simply not mentioned as even a possibility, much less a punishable offense, by the Author.”
Anonymous, that’s where I must disagree with you – there’s very much a punishment prescribed, although the sin is not in the fact of non-recognition, but rather in disobeying the one G-d sent, for not trusting G-d’s messenger. We see Hashem speaking to Moses that He will one day send to Israel a prophet LIKE HIMSELF (meaning, a deliverer – not simply a prophet like Isaiah or Jeremiah). There has never been a prophet like Moses in Israel’s history – except for Yeshua, who brings out not simply from Egypt but from a spiritual Mitzrayim.
“I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. I will hold accountable whoever does not listen to My words that he speaks in My name.” (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)
So, as you can see – more than simply disobeying the Torah, but also ignoring the one that G-d sent is a grave sin in G-d’s eyes, one G-d will hold people accountable for.
However, I believe that most of our Jewish people today are temporarily simply unable to see Yeshua for Messiah that he really is, just like our ancestors long ago couldn’t see Joseph in Pharaoh’s house as one of their own. They too saw Joseph as a foreign, gentile king out to harm them, when in reality he loved them with great love, forgave their obstinacy and wanted their return so that he could bless them. So it will be with Messiah when he returns.
Very interesting that Chabad website speaks of Messiah ben Yosef that’s to be killed AND mourned by Israel:
“Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in the war against Gog and Magog. Again, it is unclear whether the death will be in physical battle, or as a result of the spiritual battles which he will wage against the forces of evil. Either way, the prophet Zechariah (12:10) describes the national mourning that will follow his death.”
I’d say that we, followers of true Messiah who is despised, misrepresented and slandered, already know that Messiah ben Yosef WAS killed in the spiritual battle with evil. But G-d raised him up, and when he returns as Moshiach ben David, there will indeed be national weeping as Zechariah 12:10 predicts.
Be blessed!
Gene,
I want to begin by saying that it’s an understatement for me to say that I appreciate the attention you’ve given to my words, and the obvious thought you’ve put into your reply. The truth is, I’m floored by it. Thank you.
I think it’s fine for you and I to have divergent opinions about what the Jewish Bible means, and we do. But never should either of us misrepresent what it explicitly states by excerpting from it out of context.
For instance, you cited messianic prophecy in the Jewish Bible about two different messiahs (of Joseph and of David), but you characterized lone Jesus’ fulfillment of both of those roles without declaring that as explicit in the Jewish Bible. That’s fine, because you’re asserting your own meaning as opposed to making a false statement about the Jewish Bible. We disagree on your conclusion, but we can discuss why. It’s not a misrepresentation of the Jewish Bible. But in the case of your argument that G-d set forth a punishment in the Jewish Bible for the Jews for failing to receive His messiah, you cited a passage out of context. The verses in Deuteronomy you cited were not messianic at all. In fact, it was specifically with reference to Joshua, Moses’ immediate successor, at the time of the leadership succession. Now, you may believe or want to argue that you learn out from the verse a general statement that Jews are obliged to heed the message of any Jewish prophet, or perhaps you even have a method for explaining the verse to hint subtly specifically to Jesus, but the explicit meaning of the verse in context is with regard to Joshua, and to present it otherwise is fraudulent. That is something we don’t want to get into together.
But the point I want to conclude with is that I cited for you in my previous comment voluminous passages in the Jewish Bible forewarning of horrible punishments that were to befall the Jews upon their corporate failure to observe the Law of Moses. The Jews have failed, communally, to observe the Law. The explicitly predicted consequences have befallen them. Why do you insist on setting aside these obvious facts, and the explicit meaning of many passages on this topic from the Jewish Bible, to instead insist on a “learned out” extrapolation you’ve innovated that the punishment is for some other sin that is not explicit in the Jewish Bible?
“But the point I want to conclude with is that I cited for you in my previous comment voluminous passages in the Jewish Bible forewarning of horrible punishments that were to befall the Jews upon their corporate failure to observe the Law of Moses. ”
Anonymous, I think that Jewish people were FAR MORE observant (empirically speaking) as a whole during the time of Yeshua and up until the last few centuries (before “Enlightenment”) . Today, most of our people ARE LEAST observant of any time during our history. So, there has to be another reason than simple observance, something far deeper – something spiritual. Our sages speak of “baseless hatred” (sin’as chinam) as the cause of the destruction of the Second Temple and G-d giving us into the hands of our enemies. I propose to you, in agreement with our Rabbanim, that it was indeed the baseless hatred – both of the One G-d sent AND of each other that had caused our suffering.
As King David wrote (prophetically, I believe, speaking of Messiah) in Psalm 109:3:
“With words of hatred they surround me; they attack me without cause.”
“Why do you insist on setting aside these obvious facts, and the explicit meaning of many passages on this topic from the Jewish Bible, to instead insist on a “learned out” extrapolation you’ve innovated that the punishment is for some other sin that is not explicit in the Jewish Bible?”
Anonymous (we really should come up with a name for you), this is not innovation on my part, but your standard midrashic approach to scripture that seeks to connect various “dot” and extract deeper underlying meaning (especially in the light of the fact that some of us know what Messiah actually did when he was here and what he said he will do when he returns).
“The verses in Deuteronomy you cited were not messianic at all. In fact, it was specifically with reference to Joshua, Moses’ immediate successor, at the time of the leadership succession. ”
Must disagree, because that’s not what the text says, because it gives certain characteristics of that kind of prophet:
Deuteronomy 34:10-12
“Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the L-RD knew face to face, who did all those signs and wonders the L-RD sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel. ”
See, it says that NO ONE (since Moses) HAS EVER SHOWN THE MIGHTY POWER. Now, while Joshua was a fine leader in his own right, he certainly was not a messianic figure that Moses was, one accompanied by multitudes of miraculous signs, nor did he know G-d face to face like Moses did, as Deuteronomy expressly states.
Gene,
I’m replying to your last comment first. The layout of this blog, really most blogs, makes it challenging to respond to much earlier comments–but I will try.
So, regarding the question of whether or not G-d threatened the Jews with a punishment for not accepting the messiah explicitly in the Bible, you had cited Deut. 18 in an earlier comment. I mistakenly thought, and declared, that passage to be part of the dialog about Joshua and his succession at the helm at the time of Moses’ death. You correctly pointed out my error. Deut. 18 is actually the passage from which we know Jesus, if we are to believe the “new testament” accounts of his life, was a false prophet.
“‘But a prophet who presumes to speak in My name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.’ You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the L-rd ?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the L-rd does not take place or come true, that is a message the L-rd has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him” (Deut. 18:20-22).
Since Jesus predicted that he would come right back after his crucifixion to fulfill the messianic prophecy of the Jewish Bible within his followers’ lifetime (ex. “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened”, Matt. 24:34), and he did not, Jesus qualified as a false prophet under Deut. 18.
You astutely pointed out that it was Deut. 34 that dealt with Joshua’s rise to power, and in verse 9 we see that there wasn’t an issue of the Jews choosing not to accept him (“the Israelites listened to him [Joshua]“) nor was there any threat from G-d to Israel that they’d better accept Joshua or else.
So where I think that brings us back to is that there is no explicit verse in the Jewish Bible in which the Jews are warned that the 2,000 years of exile we’re currently living through would result from failing to “believe in” anyone, certainly not Jesus. But what we do have in the Jewish Bible is lots of repeated insistences that the Jews had better live religiously observant lives in accordance with the commandments, and that disaster would result if they neglected that observation.
Your point that the Jews were much more observant in the time Jesus was alleged to have lived than they are today is well taken, and is consistent with the point I made, above, that as time has worn on, the Jews have gradually decreased their commitment as a community to abide by the covenants of the forefathers, prompting their exile shortly after Jesus demonstrated his mortality (note that the messiah is meant to presage the return of the exiles rather than their dispersion), up to the point of actually organizing more recently into formally institutionalized movements of denial, to varying degrees, of G-d’s existence, continued interest in earthly affairs, etc. Consequently, things have gotten rougher and rougher for the Jews over the millennia. On the other hand, G-d promised repeatedly never to divorce us (ask me another time for verse citations–I need to run right now), and He did miraculously return the Land of Israel, or at least a part of it, into His chosen peoples’ hands, though its run by secularists.
Sorry to bring this to an abrupt ending, but I have to attend to something else…to be continued.
Anonymous (do you mind if I call you the sound-alike Hebrew name “Hananiah” – which means “Hashem is gracious”:)?
“Since Jesus predicted that he would come right back after his crucifixion to fulfill the messianic prophecy of the Jewish Bible within his followers’ lifetime (ex. “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened”, Matt. 24:34), and he did not, Jesus qualified as a false prophet under Deut. 18.”
While people have various explanations for the above, mine is quite simple – the Messiah is speaking of some future generation, one that will SEE ALL THOSE THINGS that he’s predicting, meaning ALL of the things he listed from beginning to end, and not necessarily the generation of the time he spoke those things. Greek word for “this” could also be translated as “that”, which makes more sense for English speakers.
Another explanation is that he’s speaking about the Jewish people as a whole – as predicted in Jeremiah 31:36 they will not cease from being a nation (in spite of all the evil things that will come upon the earth and upon them), but they will be preserved though all of that until Messiah very coming.
Our limited understanding doesn’t prove that inspired scriptures are wrong – it just shows that we look at things as if through a dim glass. For example some atheists/skeptics claim that Jeremiah 33:17 is an example of a false prophecy (and even more so if one fails to take into account that Yeshua the Messiah is that King today!) that has been unfulfilled for way OVER 2000 years (because, “Davidic line of Kings ended with Zedekiah”):
“For this is what the L-RD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel.”
The question is: since it appears that the above prophecy failed to be literally fulfilled as skeptics claim, does this make our Bible and our Judaism, our very faith in our G-d as Jews wholly unreliable, or did the superficial and limited human understanding of it is what actually failed here?
I think you get my point.
Be blessed.
Sorry, I know I owe you more information and I may have bitten off more than I can chew in terms of commitments to complete some of the topics I’ve started with you and others.
I just popped in and read your latest post and I think you make some articulate points. Your offerings for alternative meanings of Matt. 24 are creative, but, as you seemed to indicate yourself, not intellectually satisfactory because they do tend to clash with the plain meaning of the text. Jesus said he was coming right back to fulfill the lot of the messianic prophecy, and he never did. That generation is gone. Long gone.
I also want to touch very quickly on your assessment that Jeremiah 33:17 is a false prophecy, and that it didn’t invalidate the Jewish Bible, so Jesus’ false prophecies shouldn’t invalidate the Christian bible. First, even if Jeremiah were a false prophecy that invalidated the Jewish Bible, that wouldn’t bolster the argument for believing “new testament” accounts of Jesus’ fulfillment of Jewish Bible messianic prophecy, it would show that that Christian bible is as bogus as the Jewish Bible would theoretically have been. But, second, Jeremiah 33:17 isn’t a false prophecy, it’s a messianic prophecy that will come to pass in the messianic age, as we see in the immediately preceding verses “‘Behold, days are coming,’ declares the L-rd, ‘when I will fulfill the good word which I have spoken concerning the house of Israel and the house of Judah. ‘In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous branch of David to spring forth…”. Jeremiah 33 is an as-yet unfulfilled prophecy; for it to have been a false prophecy it would have needed to follow the Jesus model by setting a completion deadline and then letting it lapse unfulfilled.
Have a great shmini atzeres.
Romans 1:16-22
Intellectualism cannot compete with Faith….it will frustrate the one who is trying to use intellectualism for that. Professing to be WISE they became fools…No one can know the truth
except it come by faith….
The book of Daniel talks about time lines alot….
Is interesting to note Jeremiah never had to go into Exile along with his comrades to Babylon but remained in the land of ISRAEL
Jo Ann… we are never called to blind faith or to suspend our intellect. It’s only when we, in our pride, elevate our “intelligence” above that of G-d, that’s when we get into trouble. Anti-intellectualism that is rampant among many Evangelical Christians today is just as bad if not worse because it misrepresents faith in G-d and Messiah as a backward hillbilly religion. Yeshua HIMSELF reasoned from scripture to prove to his own disciples that he indeed was who he claimed to be:
“…beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he EXPLAINED to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.” (Luke 24:27)
We also read about Shaul:
” And he REASONED in the synagogue every Sabbath, and PERSUADED the Jews and the Greeks.” (Acts 18:4)
“Is interesting to note Jeremiah never had to go into Exile along with his comrades to Babylon but remained in the land of ISRAEL”
But another prophet, Daniel, an unshakable hero of faith and lover of both G-d and his people Israel, DID go.
You are right Gene; but some use the intellect only as a excuse to negate what the scripture says. As I have seen in this post with “A” He only debates and does not understand what he is reading in the scripture as false or untrue….
It is typical of one who does not believe in one true GOD….A TOTAL typical debate!! One goes on with his intellectual untruths and another who believes defends it constantly…. TYPICAL…
Faith is wise reasoning also….
WHAT IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM GENE?? Intellect or reasoning or faith??
I didn’t know anti intellectualism was rampant among evangelicals it is typical with them also as I have seen throughout my whole life with whom ever is in a debate….not only with Jewish people it is in all areas of walks of life….GENTILES also….debate in evangelical circles. That is why I know this to be true….I think you are attacking me for some reason as a evangelical christian and not a Jew. AS one who believes as you do and a sister….
Daniel even in exile was tested and prevailed by HIS FAITH!! Not by his intellect!!
“WHAT IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM GENE?? Intellect or reasoning or faith??”
Jo Ann, I think the word “faith” is a very unfortunate mistranslation in our English bibles. A much better word is “trust” (which is what Complete Jewish Bible by David H Stern uses) – we TRUST G-d. Faith doesn’t need truth and doesn’t need to be acted upon – we have billions of people on this earth that have “faith” in something you and I would consider “false”. Trust, however, it needs some evidence – at the very least we need to have evidence that G-d exists and he speaks to us somehow, someway, that he cares about us and that we can trust him. I can trust my Father to catch me when I fall.
What did G-d say through Solomon in Proverbs about wisdom and understanding?
“Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.” ( Proverbs 4:7 )
BTW, I am not attacking you (I am just differing with you on some points). I am not “attacking” Anonymous either – just having a discussion with a fellow human being.
Yes, I agree with you in that translation of Faith. It is better to use “Trust,” some words mistranslated throughout the bible because of Language barriers….
So than, Daniel trusted and YAH-Weh delivered Daniel and used Daniel and his prophecies throughout history. We have that time-line that we can trust also as it has been time tested with those civilizations!! Isn’t that truth?? History has time tested Daniel timeline prophecies and it is all true. Yet a sceptic will still argue that with his intellect. Because he does not understand history and prophecy…
Gene,
Apropos to your back and forth with Jo Ann: http://www.theshmuz.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=Shmuz_Number_18.
Anonymous, interesting, I’ll check it out, thanks.
Well Mr. Shlomovich…fancy meeting you here!
Just yesterday as I was reading James’ blog, I thought “I wonder if Gene has a blog?” (After all, you are quite famous for your comments on a couple blogs that I follow…I just thought what a waste it would be if you only got your thoughts published in the comments section of others’ sites).
Today, I serendipitously found myself here. Good to find you…I think. ;)
Shalom friend,
Allison
Thanks for dropping by, Allison. I hope you will enjoy your stay. My long sabbatical from blogging is about over, which means I will be posting quite a number of new posts very soon (I have lots of interesting topics lined up, itching to see the light of day).
Be well.